Establishing Your Business Brand & Motive with Evan Bourcier [Ep201]

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Director/DP Evan Bourcier joins us on this episode as we both discuss rebranding our businesses. Both Evan and I go in-depth and explore our unique motives for continuing to run and grow our businesses. Interestingly enough, we come to very different reasons for our work. Sometimes money is not enough of a motivator to continue doing what you're doing. See why and how Evan and myself run our businesses from a motivation factor.

Evan's Website - http://Ebourcier.com

Evan on Instagram - http://Instagram.com/ebourcier

Challenger Media House - http://Challengermediahouse.com

• Transcript

  Welcome back to another episode of the Miami video podcast. My name is Ariel Martinez. Today. We have Evan Bourcier of challenger media house. And on this episode, we're talking about how both of us have recently restructured our business, really kind of rebranded more than anything. Um, and it's very interesting and unique.

  The reasonings that we both give because we actually come from very different points of views where I am a little more profit motive. Evan's a little. Uh, less of what you don't like and more of what you love to do sort of motive. Um, and we kind of deliver, uh, both of our messages, very uniquely. And I think that we have a very, very interesting dynamic and conversation, and I think it makes for a phenomenal episode for anybody that's thinking about rebranding or making any new, uh, business starting off and kind of seeing where we're both coming from and the reasonings, why makes for, I think, a phenomenal conversation I could honestly say this is probably one of my favorite episodes that I've done on the podcast in a very long time.

  So I'm very happy that Evan was able to join us on this. He now has a company it's called challenger media house, and he's been putting some great content on social media, which we'll have linked on the show notes for this episode. But I don't want to take too much time on this intro. Let's just go ahead and get into our conversations with Evan bores here.

  Or I didn't even know that you're rebranding your business. You, you, you started another company. Um, I thought it was awesome to bring you on the show to discuss that and to also kind of talk about my business and how I'm sort of rebranding as well. And I think it's very interesting when and how, because I just advise somebody don't do it.

  They were actually thinking about doing it. I told them don't do it because of reasons that I'll explain a little bit in a second. Um, but if you can go ahead and start. Walk us through what has been your scope of work up until now? Like what have you done and why the sudden change? Yeah. Um, I mean, you know, it's, it would be very easy to make it a long story, so I will do my best to make it short.

  Um, you know, I have been doing full-time film and media stuff for over 10 years now, started out just sort of, you know, one man banding when I got a DSLR for Christmas, um, was doing direct to client stuff, chat enough, direct to client stuff that look good, that I started getting asked to DP stuff. So it was DP and stuff for awhile.

  Then I went back to trying to like run a production company for a year, um, which ended up sort of exploding in my face. So then I went back to DP and again for a few years, and then the pandemic hit, um, and I was mostly doing like travel documentary, branded content work, and that all quickly went away in the pandemic.

  Um, and so I, you know, it was in this position. I got to figure out how to still pay the bills. So that sort of forced me back into playing production company a little bit more. Um, and I felt like I really quickly ran into a whole lot of lessons, a whole lot of obstacles and a whole lot of opportunities.

  And this sense that like, I, I had seen enough sides of this whole equation to see things that I thought could be done differently. Um, but that it was, it was sort of a complicated space to navigate. And so that was really the beginning of it. You know, it was whatever 2020, so I guess two years ago now. Um, but that was the first point where we sort of went, okay, let's like work on redefining this as a business, as a company.

  Like if you were really to take a shot at this and sort of put all your ducks in a row, what would it look like? Um, but so legally, you know, 10 plus years ago, when I started doing all this stuff, I filed a sole proprietor DBA with the town, which was Ebor sheer creative. Cause I think that's what everyone did at that point.

  Um, which I always hated, but never could come up with anything that I liked more. And so I was like, well, that's what we're going to do. And so legally for 10 years, that was sort of the deal. Um, and that was part of me getting my ducks in a row actually was hiring, um, accountants and bookkeepers. And they were like, you really need to file an LLC and put yourself on payroll because you're paying way more in taxes than you should.

  Um, and so I was like, well, if I'm going to file an LLC, it's not going to be freaking Ebor sheer creative anymore. So I'm going to figure out what the heck we call it to not be that. Um, so that was really a part of, you know, I mean, it's sorta like a number of different pieces of pressure that all came together, but that was what really made me go like, okay, we have to figure out what the heck we're going to call this thing.

  Right. And then we came to challenger, challenger. Yeah. Challenger media house. So that's, I mean, I guess the, to maybe double up on what you would say, I think I really underestimated how difficult it would actually be. Um, and so, you know, it started two years ago and we went through a whole series of coming up with sort of positions and focus and names and, uh, spending time on a whiteboard and buying domains and writing stuff and being like, this feels good.

  And then being like, ah, I don't really love it and sort of crumpling it all up and starting over again. So at one point it was articulateness at one point it was perspective media. Um, and then, you know, after repeatedly crumpling everything, I think the big fundamental change for me was just sort of going like, instead of.

  Well, figuring out what I want people to, to think about me. I want to talk about what I, how I see myself and the work that I want to do. So basically what brought about the change was, was it tax purposes and like just establishing something that was never established? Eh, I mean, I mean, it was definitely a little bit of, it was twofold.

  Part of it was this strong sense. I had that, like, I wanted us to sort of take, put a flag in the ground on like what we believe in what we want to do, the kind of work we want to be doing and the value of having a strong position and sort of like brand around that position. Um, but then, you know, the real kick in the butt to get it done quickly was yeah, the accountant's going like, Hey, if you, uh, you know, file an LLC.

  Put yourself on payroll and make an S-corp election. We can save you $15,000. And so it was like, well, if I gotta file paperwork, I don't want to do it twice. And I don't want to name it something stupid. So we're going to try and figure it out quicker, sooner than later. Yeah. So mine was a little bit different.

  My whole sort of approach to rebranding everything was, you know, things were going great. My company name is just simply Ariel Martinez films. As you mentioned earlier, that's pretty much what everybody does. Um, and it was great. I was loving the stuff that I was doing. It was fantastic. Uh, but I was also doing big work.

  When I, when I say big work, I mean like events, huge events, productions that require 20. Member crews, you know, that I had to coordinate for three days straight. And, um, things like that, that things that just don't fall under films. Um, and I always felt that, you know, it's hard to brand that, and it's hard to market that to people that in, on top of the fact that I have never done any marketing, never done any marketing for my business.

  Um, everything I have is mostly word of mouth. And then just people just find me on production hub or whatever, uh, which is great. And I thought, man, can you imagine if I actually put effort into marketing, you know, um, and has been fantastic. Um, and so I was like, and then I just started looking around, obviously I was nowhere.

  If you try to find. Things that do my services. You probably wouldn't find me on Google, at least not in the first few pages. Um, and I started seeing the people that were first few pages and I'm like, oh man, I feel, you know, I, I know I can definitely deliver better quality stuff than that. So like, this is my ignorance and the whole marketing world.

  So even though I feel I can do better at work, they're still getting all the work, you know, cause they're putting all that effort into, into the marketing and, and whatnot and sort of I'm like, man, if I just, I, I have a lot of work in Miami too. So I just started looking into sort of putting effort into the marketing and all that stuff.

  So I started looking at man, should I just change the name? What are we doing here? I actually don't remember, uh, I think it was actually, you know what, before I even changed the name, I was thinking, let me just find a URL or just website that has better marketing, SEO, uh, capabilities. Right. I didn't even think of changing the name, but I, I, as I was looking at, I purchased, I no, no lie.

  I went and bought like $600 worth of domains. Uh, just everything from Miami video production and just everything that has to do with Miami productions, videos, et cetera. And within there I found a gym, it was Miami video services.com. And I was like, how is this not, not taken? Like, it was absurd that it wasn't taken.

  And then I started thinking to myself, man, um, just take the dive, right? Just, just go all in full on brand Miami. And just start putting effort into really pushing a production company. You know, like you've been great by yourself is just me thinking to myself, uh, you know, you've been great on your own doing your own thing and you still get the work.

  Imagine if you do put effort into this, um, I'm like, man, and I just dove into that. And then the whole thing with the podcast now, as you know, it's now Mami video podcast and you know, that came about because I'm putting for years now, I started the podcast in 2017 for years. I've been putting effort into the podcast, which is great.

  You know, it's been, it's found me a lot of indirect clients, um, and which really wasn't the reason for it. It was really just, uh, as an extension of film school, which is a whole nother thing that I do. Uh, it's just so many things that I do that I really I'm putting effort into a lot of different places.

  Um, and I just. Now I'm starting to, as I get older and more mature and more sort of, uh, aware of what's going on in business and all that stuff, I'm like, man, I'm putting so much effort into so many different things and the return on it is kind of scattered as well. You know? So this is my effort into sort of pushing everything in one direction, you know, kind of merging it all.

  Uh, To the point where now I'm like one by one, transferring all the podcast, episodes to the website, transcribing everything and just letting it live altogether. It's not perfect yet. It's still work in progress, but man, it's two to rebrand, several years worth of content that you've created. Um, it's a lot of work, man.

  It's a lot of work. And so now I don't feel bad about because of the inconsistency of the podcast. Now I don't feel bad about not having a sponsor and I've always had the whole thing about man, if I don't have a sponsor paying for this, like, why am I doing it? Why am I doing it? Why am I doing it now?

  There's a reason to do it. Now it's pushing SEO like Google. Uh, well, we'll read, see all that traffic, all the conversation, all that stuff. And, um, there, it's just helping push more eyes to sort of the branding aspect of it and, you know, and, um, kind of awakening the, the idea of blogging and writing more blogs.

  On the website intentionally for that purpose. So really putting forth an effort into sort of marketing. And so, yeah, I mean, Miami video services, uh, is essentially the new direction and I'm even looking for a huge cargo van now, cause I'm about grown the small studio that I have here and to get another office space in the building, um, and trying to expand a little more, but, um, it's, I mean, it's a great problem to have, I think, but it's, it's just, uh, I think it's, for me, it was the new direction that I needed to go into to fully expand.

  And now everything else that I've done, the, the IMF fleet podcast, the pivot podcast, um, the Triller Fest concert, the ultimate gamer, uh, you know, a huge con all these things that required a bigger crew. Things that don't fall under films. It's easier to market all that stuff now, you know, under Miami video services and whatnot.

  So it's just, for me, it was, it was a pure marketing move for me, um, to sort of rebrand the business. Um, and yeah, usually when I do things like that, I, I just go full, go. Everything happens like in one day, just shoot. Like I made the decision that very same day. Um, I, I got the LLC, I got the website. I got, I, I made the logo, like everything happened in one day.

  Um, but, uh, it's been quite an adventure. It's now what about three weeks out? Three, four weeks out. Nice since that whole thing. Um, and then I saw that you did yours and I thought that was interesting. Yeah. Well, I feel like it's interesting, like what you're saying, I feel like there's such a big piece of this, which is like having.

  Sort of like clarity on what you want to be doing, um, and what you don't want to be doing. Cause I think that's one of the big pieces of sticking any good, um, flag in the ground. And part of what we're really trying to be intentional about with challenger is that we want to be very vocal about what we believe in and what we want to be doing, but we also actually want to be very sort of explicit in what we don't really believe in or support.

  Um, partially because it gives us a better connection to the people who value the same things as us and partially because it just saves us wasting time on stuff that we're not really into. Um, so I guess, cause I think that was something I struggled with for a while was like wanting it to be too broad.

  And we've sort of been intentional about getting narrower and narrower with it. So I'm curious for you, like how does. And maybe this is the wrong question to ask, but it sounds like you're trying to go broader and have more room for events and stuff, which is totally fair, but you're going narrow or in that you're focusing on Miami.

  Why keeps the word video? Yeah, so basically I have, I love the documentary stuff I do, but again, at the end of the day, this is also a move for me to put my ego aside. I am now almost four months married. I have more responsibilities now, you know, obviously in the, not so distant future, we'll have kids coming in and all that stuff, you know, you know what that's like?

  Um, I have to now do what brings in money. Right. And thank God I haven't had to worry about that. Uh, he, I is great. It's not, I'm not even complaining about that, but. I'm not going to reject work. That brings in good money just because I don't like the work, you know, so if I have to do more concerts, if I have to get a nice crew of people to handle a concert and what I mean by handle a concert, I mean like the, the camera operators, the jumbotron, the live stream, all that video stuff, everything that falls under video that I know how to do and I can coordinate and do it.

  Why not? You know, those are the huge jobs that, that come in and in one pop, you can make a ton of money. Right. And the goal of my business is to be profitable. I know that taking those jobs on, I can be much more profitable. So I made, you know, seeing that it's harder to market those jobs under Ariel Martinez films it's cause it doesn't market well with that, you know?

  So under video services, Uh, livestreaming, things like that. Like I've done those jobs and yeah, they're not the most glamorous oftentimes, but it's not about me now. You know, that's kind of like where I'm at at this point, I've been doing so much work and don't get me wrong. I love the work. It's all, you know, I'm still getting all the documentary work and stuff.

  That's not stopping my clients. Don't know me. I still have those clients. I'm still doing work for those clients. I'm just, I'm just starting to open a door for other stuff. I've been getting more calls now for people to rent my studio out, which is phenomenal. I've I've never had that. So again, so things like that.

  If I can broaden the scope of my work at the same time, maintaining not, not. Reducing the quality of what I do. And that's one of the things that kind of frustrates me about these other people that do the marketing as they should, they get all the work, but the quality of work that's being offered out here is not up to par is not up to, not up to the level that I know that I could absolutely be on.

  So that's kind of what I'm bringing to the table. You know, like don't just get somebody that's going to give you a cookie cutter production, get someone that it has been there done that knows what it takes, knows the quality. And if it's not there, he's going to get it there kind of deal. So that's essentially sort of what I'm opening the door to.

  So yeah, I'm, I'm, I am getting more general and it's funny because I've always told people, uh, focus on one thing. I've been the one telling people because that's kind of what I did. I focused on documentary. You know, while accepting conferences to shoot while accepting podcasts to shoot while accepting live streams, to do things like that.

  And man, for they bring great money. I'm sure you've had those jobs to where it's not exactly glamorous, but they had the budget they paid well. So that's kind of the deal there. Um, again, taking my name makes sense that taking my name out of it, opening it up for those kinds of jobs, really. Um, you know, it's a production company to, to, to do production.

  Uh, and it's, it's really, I would have taken Miami video productions, but they haven't accepted my offer for the domain. But, um, yeah. It's and yeah, it's in Miami, but listen, I've been great in Miami, even missing all the work that has been. Come my way, you know? Um, so really it's an attempt to sort of get some of that market that I'm missing out on here in Miami.

  Doesn't mean I can't travel. I still have all those clients that have me going all over the place. Uh, again, this is more of an outreach to kind of get that work. That's coming to Miami. That's not necessarily ringing on my phone. So, so no, that totally makes sense. And I think maybe I was misunderstanding when you said like events and concerts.

  I was imagining more like actual event production and like front of house stuff, but you're sort of saying video still within these other ventures. So that's why it's still video. Yeah, no, anything that, yeah, no, anything that has to do with videos. So I had, um, I had, uh, I had a client that said, Hey, we're doing this huge concert.

  Obviously I'm not, I don't know anything about stage. I barely know. I don't know anything about stage lighting like that. Don't call me for that. I don't know anything about sound or anything on stage. I know that I could get a feed from that sound. I know that I. Send a feed to put on the jumbo Tron. I know that if you need a live stream, I know what kind of feed that you need to have.

  I know all those little technical things, um, I know how to get a good quality shot. I know how to set the settings, et cetera, et cetera. So I know that, you know, the angles that the cameras should be. I know how dynamic, if you want it dynamic, we can get a gym out there. We'll get a steady cam operator on, on stage as needed, you know?

  Um, so now like more and more, I'm quoting these bigger productions that require 5, 6, 7 people JoVE operator steady cam operators. Um, those are things that I don't necessarily want to miss out on. You know, these are phenomenal jobs that, you know, you'd be, it'd be silly. It'd be foolish to kind of put that aside.

  And just for your ego saying, no, I want to do more artistic work. I want to do the documentary stuff. Like no that's stuff is coming anyways. Open yourself up if you're interested. Right? So that kind of work. Now, here's the thing. I do have friends that they kind of, and I, and I hire them all the time. They, they kind of, they know video.

  They know how to put a pointed camera, doing interview, light it up. But the moment you step outside of that, the moment you say, Hey, can we do this live stream? It kind of gets them uncomfortable. The moment that they say, Hey, we want to do a podcast. How, you know, the moment you say three, four people, it gets them uncomfortable.

  You know, there's a lot of people that are very scared of stepping outside of their comfort zone. I kind of embrace it like EV I I'm more of the mindset of everything is doable. Everything is possible. Obviously everything has a budget. So, um, It's it, it really is, you know, kind of whatever the client needs, it could easily be done.

  Um, and when I do these big events, I'm not trust me. I'm not with the camera. I don't have a camera in my hand. I don't do anything. I'm more just coordinating kind of, sort of the stuff that I can sign off on all the shots I can make sure all the signals are being taken. I have backup cables, backup everything.

  Um, things that I would normally think of had I, if, you know, if I had to do this myself, but it is a lot of work and is a little, you know, it definitely is a little stressful, especially with those big events like that. But, um, but that's, you know, that's what you get paid a lot of money for, you know, that's what the client's paying for.

  So it's kind of, it's kind of a different approach and to, into the industry, you know, um, you know, I'm just broadening. What we're really able to do what we're really able to offer. So, yeah, and I don't do, like, I don't know if you're sort of offering, I'm not really offering marketing management or anything like that with clients.

  I'm not kind of, we're just production part, uh, in that sense. So that's kind of the approach there. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. It's interesting. Like I totally empathize with all that. I feel like something, something that I've run into in myself, um, because, you know, I think even at the beginning of all this stuff in the pandemic, I looked around and saw this similar idea of like, oh man, there's sort of like so much bad work we could do.

  And so many people whose lunch I'd love to eat. Um, I, I think it's easy to look at those people and go like, oh, like the quality isn't there, they don't seem to care. Um, And it, it, there is some sense that like, to me, I feel like doing anything really excellent requires a certain amount of care. You know, there's, there's an element of skillful, nuanced, careful, uh, approach to whether it's the technical side or the creative side, the strategic side, the, you know, anytime you see something, I think that you're like, man, that's bad.

  You can pretty quickly point out where someone just like stopped caring. Right. Um, and my personal experience going into that world though, was that I cannot apply care if I do not care. And that for me, It in less, I mean, over an extended period of time, money is not enough of a motivator for me to care.

  And so I find that if I, for too long pursue the margin or the profit over true belief in what we're doing, my work becomes just as bad as everyone else's in that world. And not because I am now less skilled, but because I just don't have the motivation to apply the care necessary to make something truly excellent.

  Um, and I don't know that that's like in, I don't know that that's an inherent trap, but I know for us, it's something that's like, you know, I'm in, I'm in a business of running a business, you gotta pay the bills, whatever else. But part of, for me, the ethos of challenger is like, we are only taking on stuff that we care about because if we don't care about it, it's not going to be good.

  And if it's not going to be good there shores and to do it, to begin with, you know, and so I don't, I don't care. To take someone's money for something that I don't really, really, really believe in. Um, and that's a very hard stance to take, especially when there's millions of dollars flying around all the time.

  Um, but I think for me, it's like, I don't know, I don't, I don't need that much money anyway, to be honest, like I've done, I've done enough months where I've turned more money than I thought I'd make and been most miserable in most of those months, you know, part of, for me a few years ago, The turning point of, you know, I was doing big commercial DP work.

  I was working on projects for Walmart and apple and all these other things. And I had done, I forget what it was. Something like $50,000 in a month traveled all over the world is working with big cameras and big crews. And I was sitting alone in my apartment living room 260 pounds, and I hated everything about my life.

  Um, and so that was for me, one of the reasons that I was like, I don't care about being rich and famous. I don't care about working with big brands. I don't care about the budget of the project. Like I care about working on stuff I believe with, with people I like, and in a way that allows me to come home and have enough time.

  My family and my relationships, um, because I've had all of that and it never made me any happier. Um, and I think that, you know, that that's something that everyone has to figure out for themselves where they're going to fall on that spectrum. You know, definitely there are people who have a much higher tolerance, I would say for, um, you know, just sort of the logistics of the work more so than the, uh, let's say the, the.

  Artistic or creative element of the work. And like, that's totally fair. There's, there's a place for everyone. I am not in any way of the opinion that like everyone should make artsy stuff all the time. And that's, that's also, I think something that I've felt myself go down that rabbit hole of going like, okay, at the expense of all, everything else, I'm just going to follow my ego.

  And I don't think that's the solution, but it's like for me, the art, the pure artistic endeavor is not sustainable. And the pure business endeavor is not sustainable. And so for me, challenger is really trying to find the balance between those two things in a way that allows us to make the best possible stuff with the best possible people without frying ourselves on either side of it.

  Because everyone I know who's been in this industry for any period of time has gotten fried by one of those extremes eventually. And a lot of people, it eats them up and spits them out the back and they never come back. That's good. That's, that's a really good point to make and very, very interesting and unique.

  Um, to me, I feel like I don't know that I would, I'll be honest here. I don't know that I would ever find a client whose vision that I believe in so much that I would make it myself care that much about it. You know what I mean? Um, and this is just me talking, right? So a client comes in. Um, you know, they want to make a marketing video for a new cell phone that they're coming out.

  Uh, they want to make, uh, they want to start a podcast for real estate that they, I mean, it's, it's just things that, yeah. They need video. Right. So I'll be honest. What got me into video production in the first place is the fun of just playing with the equipment and just seeing what I can make with video, you know?

  Um, and personally, I don't know what it is about, I guess it's me. I like the challenge. I really do. I like, you know, give me, give me something to, to sort of solve for you, right? You want to have three people on cameras. You want to have all this, and here are all the options that creativity of making video.

  The, the fun aspect of it to me is kind of what drives me. I've never, I've never sat in the middle of a project and be like, you know what, actually. When I'm in post-production post-production oh gosh, it's editing for somebody's video. That's kind of where I sit down and I'm like, okay, this is getting old, which is really kind of probably why I only do production now is not because I offered it.

  It's really, I, I don't, um, most of the time with clients usually want productions, however, um, but in production, in the production aspect, dealing with the cameras, the lights, the audio, the, every aspect of it, kind of coordinating all that to come together. I think personally that's fun. That's the fun part for me.

  Um, and I, and I love it does now there have been. There have been messagings that I refuse to work with. There have been brands that I refuse to work with. There has been work that I've refused. There are definitely things that I would reject and still would. Um, but to me it's just the, the, the challenge and creativity that comes with making video and implementing that to, to, to send a message to display a brand.

  That's just fun in general, for me, that's the fun part. Um, and yeah, I say it just to me and, and, you know, obviously speaking, um, out loud here just still boggles my mind that we can sort of make a living doing this. Cause it's, it's funny, there's some people that just fall in love with a message there's people that have to be passionate about each individual project that they do.

  I don't think I'm ever going to be passionate about another client's. I don't think that I can. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I speak about this all the time, highly devout Christian. I, you know, that's, that's what I'm passionate about. That's my main passion. That's why my funnest projects are the ones that I do for free for my church.

  I don't charge my church for anything that I do. Those are the projects that I actually love to sit in production in post-production in preproduction, the entirety of it. That's fun. Those are the people that I love to work with. Um, but, and those are the ones that are ironically, those are the ones that I don't get paid for.

  I don't charge, I will never charge my church, but it's just to me, the whole aspect of video production is the fun part for me. And that's where I, I feel happy. I could have a 12, 14 hour day and have a huge smile on my face because of how happy I am that I get to do what I do at the level that I do, um, and still get paid doing it.

  So I guess, you know, I guess, you know, I started off talking about how, you know, making more and more money it's and it's. That's really honestly, ultimately when you start a business it's to make money. Um, but just to have fun doing it to me, that's, that's the, the, uh, the happiness that it brings, you know, uh, to be able to use video something I love to do and play with, you know, and, and find solutions to problems that my clients have, you know?

  Yeah. No, it's, it's a blast man. And I think that's one of the things that's hard, even just in sort of like talking about this, um, online sometimes has been, you know, I think some people take it almost as like a personal attack, you know, that's like, oh, well, you know, we're, we're lucky to get to do all this stuff on any level.

  And it's like, I, I totally agree. And I don't fault anyone. You know, I've said my whole career, that the worst day of, uh, filmmaking beats, the best day of coal mining, you know? So like, there's certainly no complaints there. Um, I think for me, again, just for myself, it's more the acknowledgement to myself that like, if I'm honest with myself, I've done, you know, multi six figure budget commercials and had all the toys and like it's fun for a day.

  But at the end of the day, for me, if I leave and feel. This doesn't matter and it's not going anywhere. I don't want to show it to anyone. Like I've spent enough years of my career where I didn't show anyone, anything I made and it was all the most expensive stuff. And for me, when I look back at it, it's like, dude, if I'm just doing this to make money, I should be in a different business because there's better businesses to make money in.

  And like, I didn't get into this to make money. I got into this because I grew up with videos that changed my life. Um, and I want to do that for other people. And there are brands I think that have room to do that. It's a very small segment, like what you said, there's a massive chunk of the world that just needs content.

  And I honestly don't give the first shit about doing any of it. Like I'm not doing real estate listing videos. I'm not doing whatever, cause I just can't get behind it. But there's people like we've been blessed to work with Matt Fraser and the H WPO team. And like their message is a message that I am like so onboard for.

  That's been a part of my life. Uh, we got to work with Cody Frye. Who's a musician out of Nashville doing some incredible work. And you know, he's trying to bring orchestral music back into the 21st century for all these band kids who like, feel like they're, their instruments are irrelevant. And so that's like, that's something that it keeps me up at night, getting excited to get that story into the world and.

  That's really the thing that I was sort of like when I sit here and go like, okay, like what's the biggest, like corporate ROI training opportunity. It's like the money's fun, but I just get tired of it so fast. But when I focus on like the things that can actually change the world, uh, it it's the most energizing thing ever to me.

  And it doesn't feel like work and it's really hard to get paid to do that. And that's, you know, part, I feel like there's always a, a tongue in cheek joke to every time I've branded something. Um, and so like we used to have this super secret film cast and the joke was that there is no secret. Um, and you know, the joke with challenger is that every time I tell people what we're trying to do, they go, yeah, that sounds great, but it's really hard.

  And I go, that's why it's called what it is. There's nothing easy about this, you know, like, but that's why I think it's worth doing. You know, I think as you were describing the, the, the projects that you get on board for that keep you up at night, that get you excited about that. I think the reason why, um, you know, um, sort of see things that way is because I've already found that as I described earlier with my church, those are the projects that I'm already doing that I absolutely love.

  Um, so that's kind of the reason why that's my ultimate for me, that's my ultimate message that I want to continue to, to create content for. And I already am. So that's already a privilege for me. Uh, so there's that, and then there's the livelihood, you know? Right. So if I can increase. And kind of this whole, how I see it, if I can also increase the profitability here, it kind of frees me up a lot more to be able to make the content that I really like, because again, I said, I'm not really doing post-production for my clients, at least not as much as I used to.

  I'm only doing productions, so, uh, and sort of coordinating productions and whatnot. So if I can free myself up more to, to be more involved there, that would be an amazing to me that that's kind of what fulfills me. Uh, so I guess in a way it does, you know, I am working for that ultimate goal, uh, but you know, using the rebranding of my business as an avenue to get there, you know, um, And so, yeah, and I, you know, I like getting a nice image on camera.

  I like making the shot look good, you know, and I like, I like the challenge of, you know, are we going to put it kind of irks me whenever I see this, when I see somebody putting a light on the camera and kind of going handheld and it's like, ah, that's not gonna look good. So, uh, I always prefer to like put the light properly where it's supposed to go and, you know, take time to do that.

  It's harder, but you get a better outcome, um, in my opinion. So those are the things that I kind of like to challenge myself with. And I think that, uh, there's ample opportunity. Is what I'm seeing with the whole rebrand thing there's ample opportunity to, to really get in there and make that a reality, you know, to give myself a little more freedom to do the projects that I love to do.

  Um, but by challenging myself to do other projects and do video work for other clients and whatnot. So, um, I, man, I'm, I'm, I'm loving the dynamic here. I love I'm loving the fact that we're very on, on kind of almost opposite ends of the spectrum here. Um, and, but for different reasons. Yeah. I mean, and it's all about finding that, that balance, right?

  Cause like I totally, I totally again empathize with what you're saying and I mean, I think it's still a part of what we're trying to do even where like, something I'm really passionate about is doing more original content through challenger. Sure. And that's something where like, I want to be funding that.

  And so we're definitely still in the mindset of how can we use some of the more profitable client work to fund original content that we really believe in. Um, and you know, I think everyone's going to find their own navigation of that. And we're all like, there are people, you know, I'm sure there are people who may listen to this and go like, oh, you know, Evans where we were five years ago, you know, I'm just at one point in this whole spiral of sort of figuring out where we're going.

  Um, but yeah, like there's, there's totally, I think a validity to the robbing, Peter to pay Paul way of doing things and finding a way to balance, you know, what's the, what's the commercial viability of what I'm doing versus my creative passion. And especially if your creative passion. I would say like further outside of commercial viability or just your personal preference, like, let's say you at the church, you could say either, I don't want to charge the church, or you could say there's really not enough money for this to be my full-time job anyway.

  So I'm going to go do something else for the sake of being able to do this. And I think that's a hundred percent fair. Um, you know, I think the thing that I was coming back to was just from my sense of like, what are maybe my favorite things? I do think there's like enough of a financial viability there that, you know, it's going to take some hard work for us to drive into really be.

  The people who get those jobs, because there's not a ton of them. Um, but that it's worth, it's worth doing that. Where like, if I was, if I was trying to do all, um, you know, I don't know if my big passion project was like helping local musicians do performance videos. I probably wouldn't build the whole business around that.

  You know, like, I'd be like, okay, let's go do something else. And this'll be, uh, something that I love. And so I think everyone has to find that balance based on what the. You know, almost like quote unquote true passion is versus what their economic opportunity is. And, um, that's where I don't think it's like a better or worse thing.

  It's just sort of a different, depending on where you are, what your passion is, what your experience thus far has been, because like, I'm sure in two or three years, like your, you will have shifted your perspective again, right? Like, and you will have learned some of what you really loved about this pivot and there'll be things that you didn't love.

  And we're even doing that as we go right now with challenger where it keeps, it keeps shifting a little bit. And just, I think that sense of trying to be self-aware of like, okay, what's working, what's not working. What were we too optimistic about? And what were, what were we naive about and how do we sort of like continue to navigate?

  Um, because it's like, if you're willing to stay adaptive through all those like failures and obstacles, things just keep getting better. But my experience has been. Every time in my career that I sort of try to lock it down and be like, okay, I figured it out. I'm a commercial DP of this, whatever that like, after about a year, I, I hate it because I've, I've grown, but I haven't let my situation grow.

  You know? And so I think that's part of where, like, just leaving the room for growth, because if you're, if you're outgrowing your scenario, but trying to be really rigid about it, I think for me, that's a lot of time where I've ended up miserable. And so I just started trying to be aware to the fact that like, maybe I'm optimistically naive about our intent right now, but like if nothing else it's really fun.

  And it keeps me showing up every day, you know? Right. And the funny thing is, this is actually the second time I do something like this. When I first started my business, it wasn't Ariel Martinez films. It was actually 10 gates production. It was an actual production company. So basically I'm going back to the original.

  Idea that I had for my company, uh, switching it to Ariel Martinez films. It was really more of an, an effort to sort of brand my name. Cause I see all these DPS out there doing the work that I am like, man, I want to do that work. So I did there. I'm doing that. I've I've done it. It's, it's great. It's fun still doing it today.

  Um, but at the same time, I'm still doing all this work as well. The work that we've been talking about, um, and I'm getting more and more calls on that. And so this is kind of more of a man if it's all coming. And I dunno, and like I said, like I'm, I'm sort of, I'm sort of, uh, the last several years I've already been thinking about men.

  I'm great now, but whatever. 10 15, 20, 30 years from now, I'm going to retire. I can't be lifting cameras the way I'm doing it today. You know, I, you know, I got to set something up for that as well. So kind of setting the stage for a retirement type of deal, you know, maybe having a business where it's just nonstop calls coming in, you know, again, I'm, I'm sort of, again, I'm stepping away from myself, what I wanted to sort of brand myself and really start branding a company that something that to me has outgrown me already.

  You know, I'm doing these jobs where, you know, there there's several days that I I'm on set, but I have two and three other jobs going on at the same time. And I'm coordinating several people on all these different places. Um, And, you know, what it's, it's really turned into sort of a producer role than a DP role kind of deal.

  So, um, so really I'm trying what I'm sort of, it's just migrating the business to reflect the scope of everything that I've been doing, you know? Um, it's just, it's just one of those things where I are you gonna continue to, to, to stick with that? And to me, it was more important to me. It was more important to make sure that I'm setting myself up for the future.

  Right. And to make sure that I'm being as profitable as possible, because like I mentioned earlier, um, now I just have a sort of different perspective on it. Um, you know, I'm recently married. We do plan to have kids. We do plan. I still don't, you know, we don't own a house. I know all these on slot of responsibilities that are going to come and I need to make sure that I am prepared if not overly prepared for all of that stuff.

  And I might be overthinking it. I really might be, you know, so it's just one of those things where I'd rather be on the, on the sort of safe side and just kind of prepare and just build something that I think, um, is, would grow easier in that, in that direction. But yeah, it's, it's really more stepping outside of what I seem to sort of love to do and sort of stepping into a role that ultimately for me, it might be more profitable.

  And to me look, um, I gotta tell ya, it's not really, I don't see projects kind of like you do, or like other people do that really dive in and, and, and invest emotionally, uh, into the story into the, into the product. Right. So I probably see things very differently. Um, again, to me, it's just playing with these toys that make, allow us to make motion pictures, right.

  And, and sort of how can I get this? And. You know, provide a service to a client that they're willing to pay for. So it must make sense sort of the, that, that direction there. Um, and, uh, again, I absolutely appeal and I can see the, the, the, those that want to maintain what I've been doing, sort of for, for a while.

  Just do the art, the work that, that you love, you know, that, that you can get behind that, that you love to do. But to me, I, I dunno if I'd been honest with myself all this time, it's it, hasn't, you know, I've been doing it the whole time, but it's really kind of the, the playing with the equipment and making videos in general, you know, so it's, that's the real fun part for me.

  Um, and sort of, uh, but yeah, I don't dive into a client's, um, product. And get that invested into it. I am in, I definitely, obviously it's to my best interest to provide the best product possible. So because of that, I have to learn marketing. I have to learn messaging, I have to learn storytelling. I have to know all that stuff and appeal to emotion, appeal, to statistics that appeal to all that stuff.

  Um, and so I am able to still help a client find the best direction that they should go in with regards to video and video production and all that stuff. Um, and I can make great recommendations, um, because of the nature of my work, you know? So it's, it's kind of like that whole thing is it's kind of where I I'm, um, it's led me to now, you know, so, um, I feel like this is, uh, the inevitable direction, uh, that it had to go in any way.

  Yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I mean, I think the one thing that I would say to that is that like, you should always be brave enough to trust your gut and take a shot, you know? And so like, if that's the part of you that feels like this is the move, then like, yeah. I think you should take the move.

  Cause the only thing worse than taking a move and it not working out, is it eating in the back of your brain in 10 years? Like what if I had made that pivot, you know, and so I'm really excited to see what comes of it for you again, like, cause I, again, I've seen a bunch of people go through it and some people really land there.

  Some people really pivot again. Um, and I, you know, it'll be fun to see sort of your, um, your processing of that. I'm just curious, like something that comes up to me. Just listening to you talk about this is like, what is, if you sit and think about it for a second, what is your favorite memory? Making something I'll be, uh, so there there's a call.

  I'll be honest with making something is with my church. Honestly, the stuff that I don't get paid for, um, those are the funnest shoots that I've been on because these are, this is my family that I'm making stuff with. Right. Everybody has a great attitude about it. Everyone's very patient, you know. Um, now if translate that to put that aside, let's say work.

  I mean, I'll be honest. I really liked the big productions. I really like these productions where I have to step into the producer role and do nothing, but coordinate personnel, coordinate equipment, coordinate locations, uh, Do some tech scouting. Um, and it's funny, cause I didn't even pick up a camera, but really in the, in the, in the whole grand scheme of things, I'm the one kind of testing all the equipment, making sure it all works, um, hiring the audio people and just coordinate and make a really awesome production come together.

  You know, those are like damn after a three-day shoot at ultimate gamer, man, we had 17 cameras on rental. We had, uh, like 12 camera operators. We had six audio guys, uh, for photographers to roaming cameras for beat. Like it was just absurd. It was a lot of people. Um, that was fun. That was fun. Stressful. I didn't sleep at all, but it was fun.

  Like I liked that. What did you love most about it?

  That I've never done that before. I loved that it was a challenge. I love that. Damn. I know. I could tell you what each individual person has to do. I could do it all. My, not all of it. I could do each individual job myself because I have done that before I've been in that position. So it helped me direct each and every one of those people easier.

  Right. Um, and it helped me quote the client better. Cause I know what each one of these things costs, you know, I know what rate I can bring everybody in on. Um, so being the one-man band myself, kind of like how you started has allowed me to provide that kind of service, but at a bigger scale things that from at least the people that I've spoken to would not have been comfortable stepping into that role.

  Right. Definitely embraced the role of managing a group of people. Um, and I'm only talking, listen, I talk like I get jobs like this all the time. I'm done this three, four times maybe, um, per year, but it's, it is fun. It is fun. Don't get me wrong. I also love the one to two person crews that I get to direct and, and, uh, sort of do quick interviews and B roll type of deal.

  Those are still very, very profitable as well. Those are fun. Those are great. I think that I like working with people and most of the time I like working with people that, that are great to work with as well. Uh, but again, a good understanding of what everyone's responsibilities are to get a good final product.

  Yeah. I mean, I love the fact that at the end of a shoot, I can look back at our crew and say, man, guys, good job, man. We, I think we nailed it today. Everything flowed smoothly, it's never going to. I mean, there's always something that's kind of, you forget a battery media, whatever it is. I don't know. Uh, but there's always that something, but you know, when you're working as a team, getting your team together, being able to quarterback that team a little bit.

  I, I think that, you know, stepping into that producer slash director role for any given project is, is, is really a lot of fun. Um, but again, here's also the thing, like I've mentioned earlier, there's, there's, uh, there's jobs that I would still take for as long as they're paying my rate, not a problem. You need them to go and do be a human tripod, as long as you're paying my rate again, it's, it's really the, the business aspect of it.

  You know, I'm not invested in that, but I, you know, I'm gonna do the best job that I possibly can based on the experience that I've had in the past. Um, but yeah, again, different motivation. Yeah, it really is a different motivator for me. What, um, what do you love about the church stuff? The most, the creativity, the creativity, I can really get creative with it.

  And why? Because there's no preconception on what this is supposed to be. My church is not used to having content like that, you know, and they're not paying for it either. So even though they're getting a phenomenal product, they're not paying for it either. Uh, with my clients, I like creativity with my clients as well, but I don't go too far outside the, I don't go too far out there.

  Cause if they don't like it, I mean, they're already paid for it. I don't want to upset them either. I try to stay within certain guidelines. I still get creative. Don't get me wrong. I still, I try to get, stay within certain guidelines. Um, but yeah, it's just the creative freedom that. With working with my church, you know, and then the people that I got to work with, but also the fact that, you know, they don't do this all the time, so they really don't get to see like full blown videos all the time, you know, so really they're just happy getting a video, you know, so they're, they're happy getting a production there.

  You know, when I work with, especially with the youth, you know, we do productions where they all have to come in and all that. So I love seeing how much fun they are that they're having, you know, um, when I go with, uh, our setup in our, in our crew and out there, so it's, it's just a lot of fun and the people that, you know, some of the people from the church are getting into it, so, um, they're really getting into it.

  And so I'm able to teach them and sort of, they can start doing little projects at the church as well. So that's a, that's the fun part as well, but it's really, so yeah, at the end is really just the creative. Yeah, that's really interesting. That's something that like, I, I have felt too and was part of, you know, when we were going through the whole challenger thing, I think it was, uh, it was at the time that it was still called perspective.

  We were looking at what are, what are our favorite things and what are our least favorite things? Um, and both myself and my partner, Chris went through our favorite projects and they were all things that were sort of non-commercial in that they were mostly intended to serve a valuable purpose in the world.

  Um, and all the big commercial stuff we had done, we were like, ah, you know, whatever, it's fine. Um, and the ability to like be creative in that context was another through line to it. And so it sounds very similar, but that was one of the things where I was like, how. How do we, where's the overlap in this Venn diagram, right?

  Cause it's like, I feel like there's gotta be a way that we can bring more of this creativity and this making something excellent for people who deserve to have something excellent. Like that was something that I grew up in the church and used to see like videos from missionaries. And I remember just thinking.

  What these people are doing is important. And this content sucks. Like this is such a miss utilization of the impact that these people have in the world. Um, and I wish it was better. And that's something that for me now, I still look at who's doing something that actually matters that actually what they're doing has impact and how can we be amplifiers of that impact?

  Because my skillset is at its best, taking someone doing something that I actually believe in that matters and letting myself be creative with it. And we can have really high impact there. And that maybe we don't have, you know, a massive crew. Maybe we don't have all the biggest gear, but that I personally have had way more.

  Um, myself being creative with a three person crew for three days, then I have like making something generic, you know, with a million dollars. Um, and so that was sort of, for me, just a north star with like how we're picking up projects for challenger is like, at the end of the day, we got to pay rent, but we're also being very intentional about not creating any unnecessary overhead that ever causes us to take on more of what we don't want them we need to, because I've also seen where I've scaled the business up to now where it's like, well, we've got all these pipelines that have got to be fallen, so we're going to find something to jam into it.

  Um, and sort of when we went back and reframed everything, it was like, okay, let's start from zero. If we have two people, how much stuff do we really need to do to, you know, clear our personal financial goals for the year? Not that much, actually, uh, because the other upside of having two really skilled people is.

  Myself and Chris and one other person can get a lot more done than a lot of six person, eight person crews that I've been on. And so we can actually be surgical with people to make something really excellent that doesn't have a ton of overhead where we all get paid really well. And, uh, yeah. So I don't know.

  It's sort of like, it's just interesting. Um, because you know, I think that. You are such a talented person. And I think that, like I have felt in the past, this need to separate what I'm passionate about from what I am good at or can be paid for. And that, for me, like the super power only comes when you reintegrate those things.

  Um, and so that's the thing that I would just be curious for you. Like, again, I totally support this whole venture man, but it's like, if you can figure out how to overlap, what you love and where you are creative with, how you get paid, you'll be unstoppable. But if you, if you keep trying to keep them separate, I think you'll deal do well.

  You'll be successful. You'll make good stuff. You'll get paid. You'll retire. But like, if you can find that overlap, like you're, you're really unstoppable, honestly. Yeah, no. And you know what? I I've been there. I felt that emotion when I see a message that I'm, that is not being told. Properly. I see videos that I'm like, oh, it just, it, it makes me cringe because men, this needs to be better.

  You know, I've been there. Um, I've had, uh, you know, it, it it's moved me to offer videos all the time to videos, to, to, to foundations and, and organizations, um, that I believe in. And I'm like, you guys need help, you know, let me help you guys. Don't worry about the money if you can pay. Great. If not, don't worry about it.

  Um, I've made those offers before, so yeah, I am moved by messaging as well. Um, at the same time. You know, uh, I, you know, I understand just like you mentioned, you have to pay the bills, you know, things like that. Um, and so, so for me, the, the name of the game has kind of, sort of been, you know, how can you be profitable yet be able to do all these sort of projects and you know, to me, what are you doing between the projects that you love?

  You kind of have to do other projects that you're not so thrilled about, but that doesn't mean it necessarily makes me, you know, um, sad to do those projects. I'm still happy to just be able to do video production in general. Do I wish. My church projects full time, a thousand percent, I would love to do that, you know, and I would continue to do that.

  If the opportunity opens where I can just do that full time and get paid while doing that great, I'll take that. But the opportunity is not there, you know, so I'll continue to do video content for clients that need it as needed and to sort of need, uh, that to, and they continue so long as they continue to fund it.

  I'm going to be there to make those videos. Uh, but for the time being, I mean, that's not going to stop for me. I'm going to continue to do the videos and the content that I love, uh, for the organizations and messagings that I love, um, while maintaining sort of a business. So, you know, to me, it's really kind of, uh, keep the wheels turning on this thing that that's already moving, you know?

  So, uh, and that's sort of the direction that I'm going. And I don't think that I can. Uh, Ford, not really a Ford, cause it really, it really also comes down to like, what kind of lifestyle do you want to live? Right. Um, and I'll be honest with you. I'm, I'm a big spender. So I require a lot. Um, and uh, and now, you know, with my life, I like to spoil that woman.

  So, uh, yeah, I, I, to me, it's more of a, we need to, we need to bring in some more and sort of, uh, be safe in that way. Uh, but also just doing the, the projects that, that, that we love to do is it's just listen. All of it is fun for me. It really is like, I, I cannot complain. Um, it's, it's. It's still, when I think about it, um, you know, there was a time, especially from the way that I, I grew up in, in poverty.

  Um, and I, I say that loosely because I know some people were really impoverished and whatever, but, you know, because of the way that I grew up, it makes me fully appreciate everything that I have. Like, absolutely. Like, it brings me to tears every now and then to think, you know, where I have come from. Um, and I'll never forget that.

  So to just be able to make a hundred dollars in one day making video, it's awesome for me, you know, and you know, obviously, um, we're, we're past that, but you know, everything, any thing further for me is just gravy. I'm living in gravy sauce right now. So it's just amazing to be able to make a living, just doing what I'm doing.

  So, um, living in a constant state of appreciation, um, so. Yeah, I would love to continue to do that, but I'm not, I'm not going to get greedy, you know, I'm going to be grateful for what I have and what I continue to get and how I continue to grow and continue to move in that direction. And when the door opens and when the opportunity opens to kind of do that full-time and kind of make that shift kind of like what you're talking about.

  Yeah. Maybe I'll go in through that door. But right now I feel like as I grow, as I, as I, as I grow now as a husband, hopefully, you know, as soon, uh, as, as a father and all that stuff, you know, I got that. My first priority is to, is to provide. And then have fun. Right. I'm having fun providing honestly, again, I couldn't be, I couldn't be more grateful for that, but, um, but yeah, I'm not personally, I'm not going to, it's just the only way I can describe, I'm not going to get greedy with my clients and, and pick and choose, and just only pick the ones that, that, uh, offer me something.

  No, they have to offer, uh, the, uh, the Monetate, the, the monetary value of the service that I'm going to give them. Um, you know, because that's kind of what sort of running a businesses. And to me, it, a business is a business I'm just grateful to have fun. Running the business kind of deal. Not sure, totally makes sense.

  Seeing that man. And I mean, I totally empathize with that too. I mean, I grew up, um, you know, my parents were in a long, messy divorce. I was the oldest of six homeschooled kids. Like we were, I remember pulling, uh, staying at friend's houses because the heat got shut off during the divorce, you know? And so like, I I've been there.

  I, uh, And so I think it's easy again, just like another thing I've seen for myself was that I coming out of that felt this obligation to collect every dollar I could, because it was like, what sort of idiot says no to $20,000? Like I remember having zero shores. If anyone offered you $20,000, you would be an idiot to say no.

  And I personally sort of had to reframe that to go, like for, for me, I I'm personally find sharing. You know, I, I personally netted over six figures out of what I did last year. And if I can do that, doing what I love, I think it's great. To keep doing stuff I hate for money I don't need. And it's like, I would rather spend those hours instead of getting money that I'm going to do what with I'm going to teach people.

  I'm going to make content for Instagram that I really value. I'm going to do a podcast that I believe in I'm going to drive towards, um, original content that I believe in. And so, you know, like you said, everyone has a different line there on like what their business needs and what they need and what sort of work they need to take on.

  But I found that for me, there was this sort of never ending trap of more is better. And that sort of starving poor kid from when I was young, always wanted more money in the bank. And that, that my experience with that too. You know, I remember when I started out and I had $400 in my checking account and I remember feeling like a big deal cause I had a thousand dollars buffer.

  And then I was like, oh, what if I had a $5,000 buffer? And then what if I had a $10,000 buffer? And then you go, what if I had a hundred thousand dollars cash in the bank? And then like you have a hundred thousand dollars cash in the bank and it still doesn't feel like enough. You still are like, well, what if the jobs don't show up next month?

  What if whatever else happens? And so for me, there was some sense of like this never ends. I could have a million dollars in the bank and feel this way. So I have to go back to figuring out how do I get what I actually need and what my family actually needs. And then how do I shut it? 'cause otherwise, you know, my other experience was I almost got divorced because I was burning myself out, chasing money at the expense of my relationship and it was money we don't need, and it was fame that I didn't need, but you know, that poor kid was like, you can't say no to this job, you know, who, who says no to $6,000 for a date night.

  And it's like, well, that in the long run, the date nights worth a lot more to me than an extra six grand. Um, and so it's just like, it's a complicated equation, right? That like, we're all trying to figure out. Privileged enough to figure out which again, I'll acknowledge, like it is a privileged position to get to decide date night or $6,000.

  Not everyone gets that problem, but I think if we take, if we take that for granted, at least again, in my own life, if I just tunnel in on like money, money, money, or the work or the creativity, everything gets out of whack. And so we all sort of have to constantly be recalibrating for like, what's valuable here.

  Um, because otherwise, like I've gone a whole years down my career into burnout to then find out that I had like dropped all the balls on everything that actually mattered to me, you know, a thousand percent. And I think that that's a very, very valuable, uh, perspective to, to put out there. It's very important to see that, um, That that will, yeah.

  That's something that I'm also trying to find that balance again, almost four months now, uh, married, but you know, I've done things where I go like two, three weeks nonstop. I work, you know, non-stop blessing is coming in. That's phenomenal. And I'm like, sweetheart, once this is done, we're going to a great stakeout.

  Like I'll, I'll go and spoil her, you know? Um, and she's very supportive of that, but yeah, that has to come between, you know, that's definitely something you have to work out between you and your spouse, you and your family too, because when the kids come, that's more attention that they need as well. Um, so that's kind of, uh, the deal there as well, but also, you know, to me, those projects that I do.

  You know, my church that are very fulfilling to me, you know, I do a lot of stuff with my, that, just those pro I travel a lot with my pastors, uh, on those men's conferences that we go to all the time. I'm very, I go to, I go to church three times a week, that's just a regular services. But then, you know, um, I'm fellowshipping with these guys each and every single day because where my office building is, uh, there's three of them that has have their offices here as well.

  Um, we're traveling all the time together. Uh, so I'm very, very, are really actively getting fulfilled of what I like already, you know, so that extra time really, I have nothing else to fill that up with except work. Right. Except building my business. Uh, now obviously there's the dynamic of being with my wife.

  Uh, so that's kind of what I'm sort of playing into now. But to me, I think that. You know, I can build this business so that I can have more time to, to sort of, you know, I've been more, more and more lately. I've been sending other people to do shoots as opposed to myself. And I can only do that by taking in jobs that allow me to do that, you know, does that make sense?

  So, um, I definitely have that in mind as well, but that's a great, great, uh, perspective to sort of see things in and sort of definitely be appreciative and don't be greedy. Um, yeah, cause time is absolutely valuable and if you're not careful, you can easily get lost in that whole, uh, spiral of sort of making more and more and more.

  Um, but you know, uh, you know, At the moment, I'm very, very highly attentive to that. You know, making sure I'm not, you know, I'm not working till 12 one in the morning anymore. I'm getting out of here around six o'clock I'm going to spending time with my wife at night, you know? Um, so I'm making sure that, you know, we're making time, but again, at the same time building a business so that I don't have to fully be go, go, go doing what I, you know, the whole one man band thing again.

  Um, so yeah, it's a very, it's a very, uh, interesting balancing act that you have to sort of do to sort of sort of weigh all those things. You know, the, the projects that you love, the projects that are profitable, um, building a business that's sustainable, you know, maintaining a family, which in and of itself have, have its own balancing act.

  Uh, so it's, it's very, uh, very unique and interesting that whole thing there. Yeah. It's a privileged problem to have we're suffering from privilege. It's still a real problem, man. You know, I think that's the other thing that I've learned is that it's easy to, it's easy to invalidate your own stuff, but it's like, it's, it's real pain.

  It's real pain for the people around you. It ha it's real decisions you have to make. And so, you know, again, it's two kids who maybe came from not having a lot. It's easy to be like, oh, this isn't a problem. It's like, no, it is like, I, I was. I was about to get on a plane, to go to Florida on vacation with my wife when she said I'm not going.

  Cause I don't feel safe with you because I was just totally obsessed with work. And hadn't been paying attention to her and it's like, that's real crap, man. That's not, I don't care what anyone else says. And like that's part of, for me, what led to, I had to shut down my Facebook group, shut down my podcast, get rid of Instagram and reframe my whole life because I had kept telling myself these aren't real problems.

  I'm fine. I just have to do this. I have to work hard. This is the season I'm in and my life was falling apart in my hands. And so like, it's a privileged problem, but it's still a problem. If you don't address it, you know, a thousand, a thousand percent. And I one can see at least I could absolutely see how you come to your conclusion of how you need to structure something to make it flow.

  You know, so that everything is perfectly balanced. Um, that's a move that I think I would even do as well. No questions asked if it ever gets to that point. Like nothing, nothing is worth making more, you know, working more to make more. Um, so that's absolutely something that I would even probably advise anybody to do.

  Like if, if you know, you're, you're having family issues and whatnot, you don't need more, you know, if your business is doing good, you got food on the table, you're doing what you need to do and sit and sit back, you know, um, Yeah, for sure. That's, that's something that I could see how you come to that, our realization and sort of find that, that right balance, man.

  So I commend you on that. A lot of people would kind of let that go by the wayside and sort of continue to work harder and kind of let the marriage go into, to ruin. So that's that's, I mean, I had that, uh, I feel like I had that fork in the road, you know, I remember it was sort of, it was a little bit after that where we were sort of in the process of reconciling and straightening things out and, uh, you know, sort of the, the, the, uh, for lack of a better way of putting it, you know, sort of the line was drawn in the sand.

  That's like either, either you're getting help or this is over. Um, and I, I remember sort of like seeing the two doors that I was like, okay, I either shut this down and go try and like, figure this out. Or I like. Get a condo in Miami and like Lisa Lambeau and like live the Instagram influencer film guy life Lisa.

  Yeah. But you know, I think also, you know, I was 24 and doing a whole lot better than I thought I ever would. Th that was sort of the future I saw for myself and the other option. And it was like, wow, man, I don't, I don't actually like that, that much, you know, like I've, I don't know. I enjoy nice things as much as the next guy.

  And I have a propensity towards spending myself, but like every glass of blue label that I've drank and every pair of Yeezys that I've had and every. You know, BMW M series that I've driven has been less satisfying than the ability to go. I'm going to take two weeks off and just go to Florida with my wife.

  Cause I can, you know, and so that's like, I think that's another thing that I've come to really value is that like, if I run my business really well, I actually don't have to work that much at all. And then I can do whatever the heck I want the rest of the year. And like, that's something that the little poor kid me is like, that's freaking sick.

  Like that's amazing. I love that. I, I totally surprised my wife with a quick trip to New York just for her birthday. And I'm like to be able to do that, to have a job that allows for that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And again, so that that's, I, I'm glad that you mentioned that because now you can sort of see.

  We're each of us are coming from. So I've never had that situation where you're working too much. It's affecting us this much, that this is about to happen for me. It's man, this is about to happen. I need to provide, I know, you know, she's going to want to have kids in about a year or two and et cetera, et cetera.

  So I need to kind of put a fire under my butt and start making more money sort of, cause I know. You know, she's, I don't think she's going to hear this, but she's a spender too, so, and kids are expensive, man. What's that? We just read the stat. I think they're saying the, the statistical average to get a kid to 18 now is $270,000 or something, but it's also like, okay, so real quick, I'm going to, I'm going to throw you a quick tangent on this.

  Cause we were talking to me, this came up while I was in Florida a few weeks ago and my in-laws were like, well, there's no way we spent that much. And I think that's true. And I think something that I've had to become intimately aware of is that when you are someone who has the potential to always earn more, it's sort of a, when you see a, when you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail scenario.

  And so when a marriage comes up or wanting to buy a house or a kid comes up, the immediate reaction is usually, well, I need to make more money because I can, and not everyone can. And I think there's some validity to that, but there's also some validity to this sense of like, Or what can I do less of, because I can only scale all this stuff up so far, realistically, you know?

  And so it's like, you can always take on more projects, taken more revenue, try to be more profitable. And that's a value, that's a valid strategy, but there's also some point where like, you know, my dad worked super hard. I really appreciate that, like work to take care of his family. But like I never saw my dad much for the first 10 years of my life.

  And then my parents were divorced. And so it's only been in the last year that I've really gotten to spend that much quality time with my dad. Um, and it's like, man, I don't, there's nothing from the first 10 years of my life that I wouldn't trust. Financially materially, whatever else, just to have that time back, you know, and I think that's something that it's like, it's easy for us to put that pressure on ourselves.

  It's like, oh, well I want my wife to drive a nicer car. I want her to have that couch. She really wants. But like when you end up looking back at it, it's like the lack of time is never worth it. And so for me, it's like, I would only, I try to only make those decisions in the context of. It, can I do this while still providing as much time as I think is really necessary here, because if it's ever at the cost of time, it's not worth it.

  But if there's a way for me to make a shift that like, okay, I'm still within my boundaries, I'm still being present. I'm still doing what I have to do and I can make more money. I can give more for someone that's great. But when I'm trading off their time and access to me for my own mental hangup of what I think my kids or wife or friends need, like, that's not my decision to make either, you know, like, it's one thing if your wife says, Hey, honey, I need you to do this.

  And I don't really care if you're home tonight. Like, that's one thing, but I think we put that pressure on ourselves so often, right? It's like, oh, well I want to take you out to fancy dinners. And it's like, I would rather, you just be home on Fridays. Like I don't need rules, you know? And I think that's something that I've tried to get better at myself is like, how often am I self imposing pressure to like maximize my potential and to make as much as I can and be able to be as generous as I can.

  So often if it's done out of, sort of this like fear obligation, I ended up making trade-offs that aren't worth it, you know? Yeah. No, a hundred percent. And I think that, um, I, I D I definitely put that, that pressure on myself, but I didn't see that. So, for example, um, uh, before I got married, I was paying myself, you know, not, I was paying myself very little cause I really didn't need that much.

  So I was investing a lot more into the business and what I mean by that, you know, getting an office, buying more gear, offering more services, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so really now the, the, the real difference is going to be either get more work or spend less on gear kind of deal. So. And, you know, it is what it is if we're able to do it.

  Great. If not, then yeah. You have to make some sacrifices. Um, and personally I'm open to doing that. I'd rather do the sacrifice myself first I'll sacrifice, whatever I rather sacrifice before I sacrifice with something that she would rather sacrifice. Uh, but yeah, to me, it's been more of a also. You know, not working more, but trying to be a little more profitable per shoot.

  So kind of my strategy and I've mentioned is more on the podcast a couple of times already. So my strategy, my business strategy for the growth is to buy more gear, to offer more services, to have more profit per shoot. So I'm kind of working almost the same amount, except them just being a little more profitable.

  Once that equipment finished paying itself off it's pure profit moving forward. So as long as the one caveat there, cause I've, I've done this. I see so many people do this. It's a great strategy, but the one trap, which I'm not saying you've fallen into, but I've fallen into is that is only true. If you don't immediately reinvest it every time.

  Because if you keep doing that, you're just sort of a snake eating its own tail of. I am spending the money to make the money, to spend the money, to make the money, to spend, to make the money. And like at some point, theoretically in the future, if you cash it all out, you'll be ahead. But I think there's this really easy trap to, uh, Mike McCollough woods talks about this a lot in his book, profit first, which is that like our nature as humans is to scale expenses to meet revenue.

  Um, and so we will always sort of find ways to spend the money to make the money. Um, and so profit first was something that really changed that for me, of going like, I need to make sure that I am like setting aside money that I'm taking out on the front end of this, because I know people, I was talking to a guy a few weeks ago who was like, I had a production company doing music videos, and we did a million dollars in work and made $0 at the end of the year.

  So you can do a ton of work and spend a bunch of money and not make any money, but you have to sort of be intentional about going. 'cause I, I don't know. I've just seen a lot of people dump hundreds of thousands of dollars into all sorts of fancy gear. And it's like, yeah, you're getting rental checks every month, but they're just paying for the new gear you're buying.

  Like you're not actually making any money, you know, and you're just giving yourself more anxiety because now you've got 10 grand a month in payments. You got to make where it's like, I dunno, that's part of why I have my FX nine and Sigma stuff now. And whatever is like, it's all cheap enough that I don't worry about it.

  And, uh, when it all goes out great. And when it doesn't, I have zero stress about it. So it's definitely a personal decision, but it's easy to add in that cycle, I guess is what I'm saying. I could see how somebody would, uh, do that. Uh, thankfully, fortunately for me, it like everything I buy, it's not nothing's financed everything already paid for.

  So when I say pay itself off, I mean, like. I, I keep track of when I rent it out and how much that one item made already. So I can see when it's already, I've already accumulated that back. Um, but yeah, no, you're right. I, I'm definitely one of those people that kind of makes the money and kind of reinvested it into the business.

  Again, like I said, I've sort of started shifting a little bit in that. Um, now I have to sort of pay myself a little more, so I have to buy less gear, et cetera, et cetera, or not buy it as frequently. Uh, But yeah, I mean, it's all, it's really just sort of business strategy and approach and it's, to me it's fun to me, it's fun to kind of navigate those waters and seeing, okay, how can I sort of make, continue to make this work?

  It's kind of like a puzzle man that you just putting together and sort of trying to be as profitable, if not more. So, um, like you said, to have that freedom, I want to, you know, I want to take my wife out on a, on a impromptu trip, you know, to, to, I don't know, Colorado or, you know, wherever. Um, and, and.

  Surprise her like that because I can, because I can't take off work because I, I could afford it and stuff like that. So, um, really it's, it's really the motive behind the whole thing. Um, working smarter, not harder is kind of a very known sort of saying, uh, but yeah, to navigate those waters is really just, you gotta be careful because you could, you could get yourself into, from one problem to the next and not even know it.

  Um, so definitely glad you mentioned the, you know, your sort of reasoning behind it. Um, absolutely makes sense now. So that's something that everyone should keep in mind, you know? Um, again, I'm not, when I first started, I don't know if you're following me back then. I would post all the time, one in the morning, still out here editing two in the morning.

  So out here working like crazy, listen, this is what I'm single living by myself. Still not. Just building my business, you know, hustling and grinding, like crazy, uh, priorities have changed. Uh, workflow has changed. Work ethic has not changed. It's just target targeted effort has changed, you know, boundaries.

  Now it makes a big difference. Huge difference. Very big difference. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's very super interesting to see how the whole thing has kind of unfolded, um, with both of our businesses. Yeah. I'm super excited to see what you do with Miami video services and this whole next season, man, it sounds like you've got a really good path in front of you.

  Yeah, no, definitely looking forward to it. Um, and, and mind you, I don't make decisions like this by myself. As I mentioned in a previous podcast, like I have mentors, I do talk to, I have a couple of pastors of mines that are very successful business owners and I'm talking very successful, uh, that have.

  Great businesses. Um, multiple locations, offices everywhere. Um, and I have lunch with them. With one in particular, I least once or twice a month to talk business, give them, just shoot things by them. And this was one of them. This was one of them. And, you know, I try to keep my head on, on good shoulders there by getting counsel and seeking advice, even though they're not in my industry, sort of there, you know, there, there's definitely setting me up there and trying to, uh, guide me in that sense.

  So, um, it didn't come like this, not just, uh, a decision that I made out of thin air. So it's something that was thought about and, and consulted with. So, um, yeah, looking forward to it and, um, and trying to see how the whole thing unfold. There's still a lot of work to rebrand, everything that I've been doing for the past several years.

  Um, But we're, we're, we're getting there. We're getting there, but, um, yeah man, and challenger media house, that's exciting to see, looking forward to seeing all the future posts that you guys are gonna be putting out there. I've been loving the social media stuff and just loving it a lot. Appreciate it. And some people have actually been sending him to me like, yeah, some people are like, oh, look what this guy posts.

  I'm like, I know that guy. He's a, um, this is my man, Evan. So, uh, they've, they've been really loving the content. It's really speaking to them. You know, you could tell that, um, you're really diving deep into the information that you're putting out there. Uh, just so you know, it's definitely, you know, a, it gets me interested what you're going to say next, because those are things that are not thought of.

  You know, in our industry when people think about projects and things like that. And I, I love the ones where you're calling filmmakers liars, so good. It's so true. It's so true. Once you explain everything behind it, um, it's, it's, it's really, really good for those that don't have any context, just go follow.

  Uh, is it still under Ebor Sier it is. Yeah. That's well, okay, so that's a quick call back. When you said earlier, uh, you know, your name, films being a thing. I don't think there's actually a problem with that. I hate it because no one can spell my name. And so it's like, it's very inconvenient to pronounce the spell.

  Um, but yeah, if anyone, I, I assume my name will be somewhere around like show notes or something on this. If you look me up on Instagram, you can find that we've been putting some of it. I've been playing with Tik TOK. I'm trying to not be a curmudgeon and learn tic-tac, which has been really fun. And then I guess I will also selfishly quickly plug.

  We've got a new original podcast coming out called sharing notes, and that is on Instagram at sharing notes pod. But if you like conversations like this, um, you'll probably like that we're having them with conversations with people like you. I mean, I would be totally down to do an episode with you actually.

  Cause I think this has been really fun, but we've got also a podcast coming up with Phil Jones. Um, is the author of exactly what to say and exactly how to sell, um, talking about words and the decisions and how we use words. We're going to be doing an episode with Dallas Taylor who runs defacto sound, which is a massive sound design company, and is also the host of 20,000 Hertz.

  So to what you said about mentors, something that I have found really valuable is that most of the problems that you run into for any venture where you want to be excellent are the same across various ventures. And so we're really trying to bring together people who are top tier at whatever they do.

  And you know, the idea of sharing notes is like, Hey, let's hash it out and see what we've learned, see what works, see what doesn't work and share what we're struggling with right now. So, you know, very much conversations like this. And I think a lot of things that other filmmakers and video production people would get a lot out of.

  So, uh, hopefully we'll have an episode up by the time this is out. If not, you can still find us on Instagram. Dude. That's awesome. And it's going to be on all the platforms, all the podcasts and stuff. Yeah. That's the plan. You should be able to find it wherever podcasts are are sold. Awesome, dude, dude, this has been an incredible conversation.

  I didn't think it was going to go to the direction that it did, but I'm happy about everything we discussed on this one. That's awesome. No, I, I really enjoyed it, man. Thank you so much for having me on and thank you for your willingness to, I guess just be like honest and vulnerable about all this stuff and to have the courage to have that conversation publicly, because I think it's something that your audience will get a ton out of.

  And a lot of people aren't, aren't, aren't honestly just like brave enough to have in this context. So I really appreciate that and respect that about you and I hope people get something out of it. Awesome. Thank you. Likewise, man. Um, so I know you just plugged in the new podcast, where can other people find the rest of you?

  Um, you know, we're, we're on Instagram at challenger media house, my personal Instagram Tik TOK, whatever else is at e-board this year. Um, I'm still on YouTube and putting some of the short content there. I've done a few longer videos. I don't know. I'm sorta like wavering on YouTube. The algorithm has not been friendly to me lately.

  Um, but yeah, that's the main stuff. Instagram and tic-tac are really the, the main places I'm at right now outside of the. Sweet. We'll be linking all of that on the show notes for this episode. Thanks for coming on, man. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. So there you have it. There's my conversation with Evan Bossier of challenger media house.

  We'll be putting links to all of his work. His social media has take talk on the show notes for this episode. If you guys want to go and check that out, I'm super looking forward to his podcast that he's going to be creating. And I just found our conversation very unique and very, I think, genuine. Um, in our approach.

  And as you can see, we kind of held nothing back. We sort of shared everything, our reasonings behind the way that we run our business and kind of the new direction that our, both of our businesses are going in and for very different reasons. So you, whether you're, you want to be profit motive, or you want to just do more of what you love.

  And I think neither one of those are wrong. Uh, I think there's something there for you and for anyone that is looking to start a business to restructure, to rebrand, do it for the right reason. So, uh, I think this makes for a really, really good episode. So for those of you that want to check out Evan's links, I'm putting the links in the show notes.

  You can also go to Miami video podcast.com checked out the episode. And see the links there, wherever you're listening to this podcast, make sure you're going to subscribe and give us a good five star review. We really, really do appreciate that. And I appreciate everyone taking the time to talk to us and share with us on this episode.

  So until next time, I'll see you on the next episode of the mammy video podcast.

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